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Topic: Critiquing Workshops Advertised here
Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:46am

To the administrators,
Does the post ROBERT THE NIRO WORKSHOP!!!! embrace points 15, 16, and 17 of your rules for users? Does this cynical nonsense help us here at a time when this small industry is shrinking? As a professional drama coach I must say that this post was not made in a constructive spirit and is damaging to this very positive and important site and the industry in this country in general.
John Dawson
dawsondramaworks.com

For craicin' classes and workshops in improv, acting and audition technique
http://www.dawsondramaworks.com

AmazingOpportunity!! View Drop Down

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Posted: 11 May 2010 at 2:08pm

Dear John,

Yes my post re Robert The Niro workshop WAS cynical, intentionally so, however I think it's unfair and inaccurate to call it nonsense..

Allow me to elaborate.. There are MANY workshops, classes, courses advertised daily on the internet..on this site and on others.

MANY of them are run by professional tutors such as yourself and are enjoyable, worthwhile endeavours.

HOWEVER,as is the case in any industry,there are cowboys (and girls!) and my post was lightheartedly poking fun at THAT section.

I did Not and WOULD not mention any individual and I Certainly was not referring to you in any way.

I think you need to view the posts in a tongue in cheek manner, thats how they were written.

I feel its fair to say the users of this sites are in the main an intelligent, informed bunch and can distinguish between a serious post and satire.

I feel surreal in having to reply on a topic that is so apparently posted in jest!

As a professional drama coach I do not think you should feel in any way threatened by lighthearted and benign banter.

I feel its a gross exaggeration to say what is essentially a bit of fun is " damaging to this very positive site and the industry in this country in general" !!

This IS a MOST IMPORTANT, USEFUL AND POSITIVE SITE.I agree with you wholeheartedly. (And I applaud your canvassing of favour with your praise for the site, I like it!!)

Its absurd to say,and I hope you don't feel, that a fun post is damaging to the industry!!

In any case we live in a democracy, we relish TV programmes such as "Mock the week" , we buy and read magazines such as "Phoenix" which poke fun at, sometimes shine a light upon ideas, theories and the morals of those in government etc.

An individual has the reason and More importantly THE RIGHT to make a decision , an informed decision as to what to do with their time, money and effort.

THERE ARE and I'm sure you'll agree ,workshops out there that serve ONE purpose..to line the facilitators pockets.. as an established and credible drama coach you should be equally annoyed by charlatans and therefore embrace the times people highlight their wares.

My post was made in a playful spirit and generally people saw that and appreciated it.

I feel your post is an over-reaction and quite baffling to be honest!!

In relation to point 15 of the Forum Rules.. I used NO abusive language nor did I belittle another poster..I wrote an individual original post! People are entitled to reply.It does not make the site a chatroom. Admin had no problem with it.

Point 16: Arguements must be displayed with intelligence and insight. Do you question my intelligence because you disagree with my view? I think it is surely an indicator of intelligence to address an issue in a gentle manner. Re my insight I think my post surely displays my insight into the small, minority underbelly of an industry which can be exploitative.As any industry can be.

Point 17:Simply, mine was a post Not a rant!

However you are entitled to your view and let me reiterate that my post was NOT meant in relation to YOU , to ANY class you are giving , ever have gave and ever plan to give.

Thank you for taking the time to comment on my post! Have a reread and I'm sure you'll see the satire and realise there IS NO sting in it at all towards you

I wish you nothing but the very best of luck and success!

Edited by AmazingOpportunity!! - 11 May 2010 at 2:11pm

VILA

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Posted: 13 May 2010 at 1:18pm

You should never critise John YOUR WAY OUT OF ORDER, you ve obviously got tooo much time on your hands / and you should not be time waisting for all those professional actors / actresses, everyone knows this complete non sense

chips66

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Posted: 13 May 2010 at 2:21pm

I appreciated the witty post by Amazing Opportunity. I am sick and tired of ''workshops'' which make empty promises and charge ridiculous fees. That insults me far more and sadly as the industry is shrinking and paid work is so rare these workshops are becoming more common and various people see a chance to rip off naive actors who may not be able to identify a scam when they see one.

We're all feeling the pinch but we need to direct our anger where it belongs. It would be in your better interests John (as would all of us) to report dodgy workshops and seminars when we see them. I have been calling for a site where we can review classes and let beginners know who is legit. At least Amazing Opportunity put an end to the silence that was here when people came on advertising 'workshops' that cost €500 for a day or weekend. It's people like this who threaten your business.

connemara

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Posted: 13 May 2010 at 7:10pm

I too am a performer and teach individually, and as part of a collective. I have to say I did appreciate the post by Amazing Opportunity too, and didn't feel it was a slight on any valid teachers/facilitators (and I count John and myself in that group!). As a person who performs (and still takes the odd masterclass from colleagues on occasion -we are never too good to stop keeping it fresh!), I too find the 'virus' of daftly priced, daftly themed workshops that have increased in the last few years quite funny. Critique is no harm, and I didn't take offense at the RTN post myself.

Edited by connemara - 13 May 2010 at 7:11pm

AmazingOpportunity!! View Drop Down

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Posted: 15 May 2010 at 3:01pm

Dear Vila above.

I have no intention of entering a debate on here with you.

You have misinterpreted my point whether intentionally or otherwise.

Of course I was NOT referring to John Dawson.

He did NOT enter my mind. He is a legit professional teacher.

I was pointing out the array of new workshops that appear,with exorbitant prices.

These are confusing and exploitative of individuals and take from the credibility of sincere teachers.

IF you had bothered to read my reply above this would be apparent to one with even a tenous command of english.

Connemara and Chips both appreciated the point I made.

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Posted: 16 May 2010 at 3:28pm

Hey,

Just as one of these newbies who could easily be exploited by the vast number of workshop operators out there I think Amazing Opportunity's post was actually dead on. It was eye catching to say the least and made a point that frankly a lot of us are thinking... does everyone who needs money & has some experience in the performing arts think they can be a workshop provider?

Personally I always triple research things & have looked at John's site which is very good. I think John's reputation speaks for itself from what I've heard from other actors and from what I've found myself on the web. I'm actually interested in a few of his workshops and intend on taking them when I get the time & cash to do so (if he'll have me!). I would never have put him into the category of provider that AO was speaking about.

But I've looked into some other workshops I've seen advertised on forums and am baffled as to why people will pay money to someone who doesn't have the kind of background info available on them that John does. To be honest, what I took from Amazing Opportunity's original post (apart from a good giggle) was that everyone looking for workshops & classes should have caveat emptor (buyer beware) in their mind... if you're paying for it, it's up to you to make sure you know what you're getting, whose providing it and that you're happy with the deal up front. Simple.

Frankly I think this benefits the genuine providers because it makes people more weary of rogues and warns people to sit up and ask questions instead of just chasing after the first person who promises them stardom...

Anyway, that's my 2 cents... nice to see these things being thrashed out in public, bye

Cup Of Crazy View Drop Down

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Posted: 16 May 2010 at 4:28pm

Many people come here, drop lots of famous names and movie titles and try to charge people to meet up and do god knows what. When you boil down the offers in many of these ads, you often find that you're actually just paying money to hang out with other actors.

trip

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Posted: 16 May 2010 at 8:24pm

Hello boys and girls!

Have to agree with AmazingOpportunity, cupofcrazy, sunshinesupergirl, connemara and chips above I saw Nothing offensive, underhand, nasty in any post by AmazingOpportunity.

S/he has clearly stated they didnt include John dawson in their initial post. They reiterated this on their next post so I think thats fair.

I have never attended a class by John Dawson however every report I have heard about him has been positive. I have also spoken to him on the phone on one occasion and found him to be a decent guy.

Its clear he wasnt part of A.O,s post and the only reason his name's mentioned at all is that he replied to the post, or rather commented upon it in another area.

Having read A.O's post I took it as it was written.. a grinning pop at the Endless stream of workshops that are being advertised here and on other actor sites.

The problem in this industry, as in many others, is separarting the wheat from the chaff.

There are talented, informed tutors selling workshops at reasonable prices and there is a smaller number of people who will try their hand at anything to make money. There is Nothing wrong with making money of course but occasionally I do question the ethics of some posts I read!

A workshop should consist of learning.. actively participating and practising ones craft.

It doesnt really matter if a 'big name' is present or not.

The country has many unknown, unsung directors, actors, writers and teachers who do great work but will never be famous. Thats not the point anyway, many many 'big names' are big for that very reason..they're talented!! But name-dropping never impresses and to wheel someone with a big rep in doesnt mean you're going to be learning anything! Even if that person is Robert THE Niro!!!

I thought AO's post was fun but made a great point and hopefully Is of interest to people who may be new in the industry etc..

As for Vila's reply does anyone even understand what it is? Its pretty much a rant and nobody criticised John in the first place!! A reply like that not only is of no value to John but, by association, possibly more harm than good.

Nobody ever criticised John ,Vila, nor is AO sharing an opinion 'waisting' [sic] professional actors time!!

Hannibal

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Posted: 17 May 2010 at 11:34am

VILA,

Is your message TO "Amazing Opportunity" about John or TO "John" about his reply ????

regards

H.

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dawsondramaworks Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 24 Aug 2009 Location: Dublin Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Topic: Critiquing Workshops Advertised here Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:46am
	To the administrators, Does the post ROBERT THE NIRO WORKSHOP!!!! embrace points 15, 16, and 17 of your rules for users? Does this cynical nonsense help us here at a time when this small industry is shrinking? As a professional drama coach I must say that this post was not made in a constructive spirit and is damaging to this very positive and important site and the industry in this country in general. John Dawson dawsondramaworks.com
	For craicin' classes and workshops in improv, acting and audition technique http://www.dawsondramaworks.com

AmazingOpportunity!! Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 22 Apr 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 11 May 2010 at 2:08pm
	Dear John, Yes my post re Robert The Niro workshop WAS cynical, intentionally so, however I think it's unfair and inaccurate to call it nonsense.. Allow me to elaborate.. There are MANY workshops, classes, courses advertised daily on the internet..on this site and on others. MANY of them are run by professional tutors such as yourself and are enjoyable, worthwhile endeavours. HOWEVER,as is the case in any industry,there are cowboys (and girls!) and my post was lightheartedly poking fun at THAT section. I did Not and WOULD not mention any individual and I Certainly was not referring to you in any way. I think you need to view the posts in a tongue in cheek manner, thats how they were written. I feel its fair to say the users of this sites are in the main an intelligent, informed bunch and can distinguish between a serious post and satire. I feel surreal in having to reply on a topic that is so apparently posted in jest! As a professional drama coach I do not think you should feel in any way threatened by lighthearted and benign banter. I feel its a gross exaggeration to say what is essentially a bit of fun is " damaging to this very positive site and the industry in this country in general" !! This IS a MOST IMPORTANT, USEFUL AND POSITIVE SITE.I agree with you wholeheartedly. (And I applaud your canvassing of favour with your praise for the site, I like it!!) Its absurd to say,and I hope you don't feel, that a fun post is damaging to the industry!! In any case we live in a democracy, we relish TV programmes such as "Mock the week" , we buy and read magazines such as "Phoenix" which poke fun at, sometimes shine a light upon ideas, theories and the morals of those in government etc. An individual has the reason and More importantly THE RIGHT to make a decision , an informed decision as to what to do with their time, money and effort. THERE ARE and I'm sure you'll agree ,workshops out there that serve ONE purpose..to line the facilitators pockets.. as an established and credible drama coach you should be equally annoyed by charlatans and therefore embrace the times people highlight their wares. My post was made in a playful spirit and generally people saw that and appreciated it. I feel your post is an over-reaction and quite baffling to be honest!! In relation to point 15 of the Forum Rules.. I used NO abusive language nor did I belittle another poster..I wrote an individual original post! People are entitled to reply.It does not make the site a chatroom. Admin had no problem with it. Point 16: Arguements must be displayed with intelligence and insight. Do you question my intelligence because you disagree with my view? I think it is surely an indicator of intelligence to address an issue in a gentle manner. Re my insight I think my post surely displays my insight into the small, minority underbelly of an industry which can be exploitative.As any industry can be. Point 17:Simply, mine was a post Not a rant! However you are entitled to your view and let me reiterate that my post was NOT meant in relation to YOU , to ANY class you are giving , ever have gave and ever plan to give. Thank you for taking the time to comment on my post! Have a reread and I'm sure you'll see the satire and realise there IS NO sting in it at all towards you I wish you nothing but the very best of luck and success! Edited by AmazingOpportunity!! - 11 May 2010 at 2:11pm

VILA Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 26 Sep 2009 Location: DUBLIN CITY Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 2010 at 1:18pm
	You should never critise John YOUR WAY OUT OF ORDER, you ve obviously got tooo much time on your hands / and you should not be time waisting for all those professional actors / actresses, everyone knows this complete non sense

chips66 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 28 Jun 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5	Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 2010 at 2:21pm
	I appreciated the witty post by Amazing Opportunity. I am sick and tired of ''workshops'' which make empty promises and charge ridiculous fees. That insults me far more and sadly as the industry is shrinking and paid work is so rare these workshops are becoming more common and various people see a chance to rip off naive actors who may not be able to identify a scam when they see one. We're all feeling the pinch but we need to direct our anger where it belongs. It would be in your better interests John (as would all of us) to report dodgy workshops and seminars when we see them. I have been calling for a site where we can review classes and let beginners know who is legit. At least Amazing Opportunity put an end to the silence that was here when people came on advertising 'workshops' that cost €500 for a day or weekend. It's people like this who threaten your business.

connemara Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 18	Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 2010 at 7:10pm
	I too am a performer and teach individually, and as part of a collective. I have to say I did appreciate the post by Amazing Opportunity too, and didn't feel it was a slight on any valid teachers/facilitators (and I count John and myself in that group!). As a person who performs (and still takes the odd masterclass from colleagues on occasion -we are never too good to stop keeping it fresh!), I too find the 'virus' of daftly priced, daftly themed workshops that have increased in the last few years quite funny. Critique is no harm, and I didn't take offense at the RTN post myself. Edited by connemara - 13 May 2010 at 7:11pm

AmazingOpportunity!! Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 22 Apr 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2010 at 3:01pm
	Dear Vila above. I have no intention of entering a debate on here with you. You have misinterpreted my point whether intentionally or otherwise. Of course I was NOT referring to John Dawson. He did NOT enter my mind. He is a legit professional teacher. I was pointing out the array of new workshops that appear,with exorbitant prices. These are confusing and exploitative of individuals and take from the credibility of sincere teachers. IF you had bothered to read my reply above this would be apparent to one with even a tenous command of english. Connemara and Chips both appreciated the point I made.

sunshinesupergirl Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 14 Mar 2010 Location: Dublin Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 16 May 2010 at 3:28pm
	Hey, Just as one of these newbies who could easily be exploited by the vast number of workshop operators out there I think Amazing Opportunity's post was actually dead on. It was eye catching to say the least and made a point that frankly a lot of us are thinking... does everyone who needs money & has some experience in the performing arts think they can be a workshop provider? Personally I always triple research things & have looked at John's site which is very good. I think John's reputation speaks for itself from what I've heard from other actors and from what I've found myself on the web. I'm actually interested in a few of his workshops and intend on taking them when I get the time & cash to do so (if he'll have me!). I would never have put him into the category of provider that AO was speaking about. But I've looked into some other workshops I've seen advertised on forums and am baffled as to why people will pay money to someone who doesn't have the kind of background info available on them that John does. To be honest, what I took from Amazing Opportunity's original post (apart from a good giggle) was that everyone looking for workshops & classes should have caveat emptor (buyer beware) in their mind... if you're paying for it, it's up to you to make sure you know what you're getting, whose providing it and that you're happy with the deal up front. Simple. Frankly I think this benefits the genuine providers because it makes people more weary of rogues and warns people to sit up and ask questions instead of just chasing after the first person who promises them stardom... Anyway, that's my 2 cents... nice to see these things being thrashed out in public, bye

Cup Of Crazy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 15 May 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 16 May 2010 at 4:28pm
	Many people come here, drop lots of famous names and movie titles and try to charge people to meet up and do god knows what. When you boil down the offers in many of these ads, you often find that you're actually just paying money to hang out with other actors.

trip Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 15 Jun 2009 Location: ireland Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 16 May 2010 at 8:24pm
	Hello boys and girls! Have to agree with AmazingOpportunity, cupofcrazy, sunshinesupergirl, connemara and chips above I saw Nothing offensive, underhand, nasty in any post by AmazingOpportunity. S/he has clearly stated they didnt include John dawson in their initial post. They reiterated this on their next post so I think thats fair. I have never attended a class by John Dawson however every report I have heard about him has been positive. I have also spoken to him on the phone on one occasion and found him to be a decent guy. Its clear he wasnt part of A.O,s post and the only reason his name's mentioned at all is that he replied to the post, or rather commented upon it in another area. Having read A.O's post I took it as it was written.. a grinning pop at the Endless stream of workshops that are being advertised here and on other actor sites. The problem in this industry, as in many others, is separarting the wheat from the chaff. There are talented, informed tutors selling workshops at reasonable prices and there is a smaller number of people who will try their hand at anything to make money. There is Nothing wrong with making money of course but occasionally I do question the ethics of some posts I read! A workshop should consist of learning.. actively participating and practising ones craft. It doesnt really matter if a 'big name' is present or not. The country has many unknown, unsung directors, actors, writers and teachers who do great work but will never be famous. Thats not the point anyway, many many 'big names' are big for that very reason..they're talented!! But name-dropping never impresses and to wheel someone with a big rep in doesnt mean you're going to be learning anything! Even if that person is Robert THE Niro!!! I thought AO's post was fun but made a great point and hopefully Is of interest to people who may be new in the industry etc.. As for Vila's reply does anyone even understand what it is? Its pretty much a rant and nobody criticised John in the first place!! A reply like that not only is of no value to John but, by association, possibly more harm than good. Nobody ever criticised John ,Vila, nor is AO sharing an opinion 'waisting' [sic] professional actors time!!

Hannibal Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 18 Jun 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 2010 at 11:34am
	VILA, Is your message TO "Amazing Opportunity" about John or TO "John" about his reply ???? regards H.